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Thread: CALC.PIDs

  1. #21
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    Yes, maybe CALC.DAT is not mentioned in the tutorial, but the tutorial does mention dynamic air temperature (in the form of the pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA)...

    and when you study the pid CALC.VET in calc_pids.txt you will see that it uses CALC.DAT....


    [ do not go blindly by what a tutorial says... but rather analyze/question why/what is going on until you understand it ]
    I guess we are not going to agree on what I believe the PURPOSE of a tutorial should be, then, and who the target audience will be for them. Tutorials that are inaccurate or incomplete are a guaranteed way to frustrate exactly the people they are written for to help. Which are precisely the people who won't KNOW what is wrong with the tutorial. All they will know is that it doesn't work.

    IMHO.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  2. #22
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    tHAT PRETTY MUCH SAIDS IT ALL. I was trying to work with the first when I was steared to the new twist. I printed it and through out the first,then found that the twist was writen for a more advanced user and left out a few of the steps. I then dug the old 1 out of the trash and used both. I'm get there now still trying to work out the maps (not getting the #,% and all quit right) but getting there. I'm old school (carbs,jets,timming lights and such) this is a whole new game. I'm not a Programer or Tuner and not very good with computers ( have to put them away sometimes to keep from smashing them) But I'm Trying!!! Joecar Sorry if I sounded negative Not trying to just trying to get a good tune in my truck before I kill the new motor. Thanks to all Robin
    Quote Originally Posted by EagleMark View Post
    Good advice!

    I think what happened in this new twist was this was an addition to origanal Calc VE that is under help and tutorials. Do that one first and then read the twist and it all comes together. But they are both differant. So you may get more confused before it comes clear.

  3. #23
    Lifetime Member EagleMark's Avatar
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    I think that EFI Live needs some new comer feedback. As I've said before take this as positive comment to improve.

    I'm not new to tuning or computers, just new to EFI Live and the frustration with tutorials has been endless as I take them as accurate.

    Just to give you 2 new guys a heads up... none of the tutorials are accurate.

  4. #24
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    aND YES WE ARE ALL going to miss the Weatherman. I never got to chat with him but I realy like what he was trying to do for us newbs.
    RIP/WM!!!!

  5. #25
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    No worries, I understand... there is a very steep learning curve...

    when in doubt ask questions, we (myself and others) will be happy to point you to the answer or to look at your logs/tunes...
    (depending on time of year, sometimes it's just me, so it takes a bit longer to get back to you, be patient )


    I renamed these two threads to give a better indication of what they do
    (and I made minor edits to clarify points):

    Calc-VET : correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-a-single-log)
    Calc-MAFT : correcting-VE-and-calculating-MAF-(in-a-single-log)


    in the Calc.VET thread, ignore the attached Calc.VET pdf since it has not yet been updated...
    instead use post #1 as the tutorial (read posts #2 onward if you're interested in how it developed);

    also
    ignore any posted Calc.VE pdf tutorial (which was an earlier version of Calc.VET).


    Also read these:
    CALC-VET-Summary-Notes

    Summary-Notes
    V7 scantool user manual.pdf
    V7 tunetool user manual.pdf


    Understanding and practicing what's in those 6 links you will be able to tune almost anything;
    AutoVE and AutoMAF are special cases of Calc.MAFT and Calc.VET;
    wideband only (WO2BEN) is a special case of wideband/LTFT (SELBEN);
    Calc.VET and Calc.MAFT can be tailored to suit particular cases (e.g. when OS does not support DYNAIRTMP_DMA).

    boost/nitrous applications will require you to look deeper because scaling may be required (and you must be aware of special fuel/spark requirements).
    Last edited by joecar; January 21st, 2013 at 10:00 AM.

  6. #26
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Hi Robin,

    Think of PCM as implementing a carburetor/distributor matched pair that work together over the whole operating range

    ( i.e. with multiple jets/orifces/springs/weights able to cover all conditions )

    Now think of EFILive software as the tools to view/edit those.



  7. #27
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Yes, we miss Shawn... he really wanted the noob to gain an understanding of tuning after talking with Shawn a few times, the noob would advance sufficiently to be able to do a reasonable iteration of Calc.VET


    Yes, please submit comments, I'll edit post #1 of each thread to make them better.


    Yes, any tutorials (typically in pdf form) are inaccurate and out of date... instead use post #1 of those two threads.

  8. #28
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    I would also suggest:
    - use g*K/kPa as VE units (avoid all other units);
    - use Metric units for everything other than temperature and velocity;
    - for temperature and velocity use Imperial units if you must (see note below);
    - make sure the scantool and tunetool are using the same units.


    Note: CALC.VET and CALC.MAFT internally use CALC.DAT.K (Kelvin), but you can display CALC.DAT.C or CALC.DAT.F on your charts/gauges.

  9. #29
    Lifetime Member Rich Z's Avatar
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    People in upper management of EFILive really need to take heed of a fact that might not have been aired before. Newbies are going to judge the quality of this product based on the results (or lack thereof) that they get out of those tutorials. That will most likely be their first exposure with trying to work with this product, and in some cases might be the ONLY exposure as they get nothing but frustration and headaches and then just say to hell with tuning. So they sell off EFILive for whatever they can get for it, and there goes a first time retail sale for EFILive to whoever buys that abandoned product from a frustrated EX-customer. Heck, I have thrown away programming manuals and guides after finding errors in them. I have abandoned programming languages because the manuals had so many errors, that I had to assume that the product had to be just as chock full of errors as the manuals were. Why invest my time and effort into learning them?

    Honestly, if EFILive wants to increase market share in the aftermarket tuning market, I think they need to make a stronger effort to help guide along newbies to work with this product. This forum is a help, but quite honestly, nearly everyone who is going to be interested in getting into this tuning stuff is going to be a guy. And hell, many guys (myself included) would rather get a root canal than to ask for help and directions. We all like to think we're smart enough, with the proper documentation or even an intuitive friendly user product, to be able to figure out anything. It's quite a blow to the ego when a product fights us tooth and nail, refusing to give up the secrets of it's operation willingly, and forces us to ask for help. How many people likely tried to figure this out and just gave up rather than come here asking for help? They are admitting defeat in public. For some people, that's an extremely bitter pill to be asked to swallow.

    Quite honestly, I think a better effort can be made with the documentation of EFILive. To knowingly have tutorials available that are outdated, incomplete, or wrong is something any company should be embarrassed about. As part of a marketing strategy to offer a product for retail sale, well, it's not my idea of a good strategy at all.

    Seriously, if I were in a hurry to get into this tuning stuff, because my car was DOWN, I would have HAD to give it up and either try HPTuners and hope they were easier to work with. Or just surrender the idea completely and stop wasting money on tools that I couldn't get to work for me, and find someone to just do the tune for me.

    Again, in my humble opinion, and offered with no return expected on my 2 cent offering.

    CorvetteFlorida.com

    2002 Corvette Z06
    427 RHS block built by LME
    STS rear mounted twin turbos
    It nearly died on the operating table, but I'm bringing her back.

  10. #30
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    I'll pass on your comments.

    The tutorials have become outdated as we (the users) did new experiments and read/learnt new stuff...

    the software tools have been progressing just fast enough to outpace tutorials/manuals...

    and this hobby/business is very much a hackers' universe

    Yes, you're right, up-to-date tutorials/manuals will present a better image and make a good first time experience, but it takes a great deal of manpower.

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