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  1. #1
    Member sonicgroove's Avatar
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    Default New to EFILive, Help increasing AFR

    Hello,

    I had my car dyno'd and was not able to do full passes because my car was pinging at the higher RPM range. Per the dyno I am running a bit lean approximately 13.5. I would like to increase fuel from 4000 and up. Can I do this but changing the PE Mod Based RPM? For example change PE Mod Based RPM @ 5200 from .79 to .75? Would this give me approximately 13.0? Or is the process much more complex than this? I don't not have a Wibeband at the moment but working on it.



    2000 Camaro Z28 LS1 Drivetrain in RX7
    2002 Camaro Z28 ECU
    LS6 Intake Manifold
    K&N Intake
    Custom 3" Magnaflow Exhaust

    Very new to the forums and tuning with EFI live. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

    -Shaun

  2. #2
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Hi Shaun,

    Yes, the quickest way is to do what you said, make B3618 richer...

    at AFR 13.0 the engine might still knock, in which case you will need get closer to 12.6 (for NA).



    Note:
    at some point you will want to correct the VE/MAF tables (and make sure IFR is correct),
    this will make wideband measured lambda equal PE commanded lambda.

  3. #3
    Member sonicgroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    Hi Shaun,

    Yes, the quickest way is to do what you said, make B3618 richer...

    at AFR 13.0 the engine might still knock, in which case you will need get closer to 12.6 (for NA).



    Note:
    at some point you will want to correct the VE/MAF tables (and make sure IFR is correct),
    this will make wideband measured lambda equal PE commanded lambda.
    Thanks joecar. Do you think it is best to keep the afr equal across the board? say from 3600 and up? or slowly richen it from 5200 up? Between are some ideas, what do you recommend?

    LABELS Stock
    RPM Values
    0 0.81
    400 0.81
    800 0.81
    1200 0.81
    1600 0.81
    2000 0.81
    2400 0.81
    2800 0.81
    3200 0.81
    3600 0.8
    4000 0.8
    4400 0.8
    4800 0.8
    5200 0.79
    5600 0.78
    6000 0.78
    6400 0.78
    6800 0.78
    7200 0.78

    LABELS Modified 1 Richer version on right
    RPM Values
    0 0.81 0.81
    400 0.81 0.81
    800 0.81 0.81
    1200 0.81 0.81
    1600 0.81 0.81
    2000 0.81 0.81
    2400 0.81 0.81
    2800 0.81 0.8
    3200 0.81 0.79
    3600 0.80 0.78
    4000 0.79 0.77
    4400 0.78 0.76
    4800 0.77 0.75
    5200 0.76 0.74
    5600 0.75 0.74
    6000 0.75 0.74
    6400 0.75 0.74
    6800 0.75 0.74
    7200 0.75 0.74

    LABELS Modified 2 Richer version on right
    RPM Values
    0 0.81 0.81
    400 0.81 0.81
    800 0.81 0.81
    1200 0.81 0.81
    1600 0.81 0.81
    2000 0.81 0.81
    2400 0.81 0.81
    2800 0.81 0.81
    3200 0.81 0.81
    3600 0.75 0.74
    4000 0.75 0.74
    4400 0.75 0.74
    4800 0.75 0.74
    5200 0.75 0.74
    5600 0.75 0.74
    6000 0.75 0.74
    6400 0.75 0.74
    6800 0.75 0.74
    7200 0.75 0.74


    I understand what you mean about needing to adjust the VE/MAF tables. The dynojet afr is no where near my commands. Your recommending me to adjust to reach ben 1, correct? I will definitely do this once I get a wideband and have more knowledge working with efilive.

    BTW what are your thoughts on the large variation between the dynojet afr and my commands? Or are there too many variables to consider that won't clear up until I get a WB? Possible considerations, inaccurate dynojet readings, 2000 head/cam vs 2002 ecu tune, performance mods. Does it matter much if I have converter protection enabled?

    -Shaun

  4. #4
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    Before you go back to the dyno, do the Calc.VET on your vehicle. Your MAF and VE tables are off, trying to adjust PE to get what you want is known as "PE raping" and is bad. It doesnt take long to get correct VE and MAF tables using the Calc.VET method, do it then see what your AFR is in PE after that.

    You need a wideband as well, you can blanket apply like 10-15% on the VE table and MAF as a temporary stopgap (VERY TEMPORARY) until you get a WBO2. Get one asap.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, tuned, turbo mods, etc.
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

  5. #5
    Member sonicgroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22 View Post
    Before you go back to the dyno, do the Calc.VET on your vehicle. Your MAF and VE tables are off, trying to adjust PE to get what you want is known as "PE raping" and is bad. It doesnt take long to get correct VE and MAF tables using the Calc.VET method, do it then see what your AFR is in PE after that.

    You need a wideband as well, you can blanket apply like 10-15% on the VE table and MAF as a temporary stopgap (VERY TEMPORARY) until you get a WBO2. Get one asap.
    I am extremely new to efilive and don't think I comprehend enough to attempt calc.vet. Furthermore I can't seem to get the proper PIDs setup and all the calc.vet tutorials seem to be a bit different.

    Wouldn't it be okay for me to temp rape the PE until I am ready to calc.vet my setup and/or get a wideband? PE doesn't normally activate until TPS% of 60%. So as long as I stay below that threshold raping the PE shouldn't be that bad right?

    I'm sorry for all the questions, still trying to learn. If my knowledge base is at all wrong, please feel free to correct me, thank you.

    -Shaun

  6. #6
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    Not really, PE raping will ONLY fix your fueling while in PE. You're still going to be lean all the time unless you're in CL, even then being that lean might max your LTFTs out and not provide enough correction.

    If you dont understand the Calc.VET, read the first post in this thread: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....-a-single-log). This has ALL the info, including the appropriate calc_pids.txt file (thanks to joecar for keeping it updated). Once you have a WBO2, follow the procedure. I had never tuned a LS1B PCM until 2 years ago, once I got everthing setup and got a good log, I had the VE and MAF completely dialed in.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, tuned, turbo mods, etc.
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

  7. #7
    Member sonicgroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarabEpic22 View Post
    Not really, PE raping will ONLY fix your fueling while in PE. You're still going to be lean all the time unless you're in CL, even then being that lean might max your LTFTs out and not provide enough correction.

    If you dont understand the Calc.VET, read the first post in this thread: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....-a-single-log). This has ALL the info, including the appropriate calc_pids.txt file (thanks to joecar for keeping it updated). Once you have a WBO2, follow the procedure. I had never tuned a LS1B PCM until 2 years ago, once I got everthing setup and got a good log, I had the VE and MAF completely dialed in.
    I will definitely been running in CL. I want to remain as close to factory as possible. I learn best my actually working through the procedures. Unfortunately I need a wideband first with a few good logs. Any recommendations on a wideband setup?

    -Shaun

  8. #8
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
    Hello,

    I had my car dyno'd and was not able to do full passes because my car was pinging at the higher RPM range. Per the dyno I am running a bit lean approximately 13.5. I would like to increase fuel from 4000 and up. Can I do this but changing the PE Mod Based RPM? For example change PE Mod Based RPM @ 5200 from .79 to .75? Would this give me approximately 13.0? Or is the process much more complex than this? I don't not have a Wibeband at the moment but working on it.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by sonicgroove View Post
    I am extremely new to efilive and don't think I comprehend enough to attempt calc.vet. Furthermore I can't seem to get the proper PIDs setup and all the calc.vet tutorials seem to be a bit different.

    Wouldn't it be okay for me to temp rape the PE until I am ready to calc.vet my setup and/or get a wideband? PE doesn't normally activate until TPS% of 60%. So as long as I stay below that threshold raping the PE shouldn't be that bad right?

    I'm sorry for all the questions, still trying to learn. If my knowledge base is at all wrong, please feel free to correct me, thank you.

    -Shaun
    If you're short of time you can just go ahead and "rape" the PE to make it sufficiently rich (12.6 for E00 as measured by wideband) and hopefully this will take care of the ping/knock.

    You might want to also make the PE table a little richer down lower... any time the engine sees high load (regardless of rpm) you want to make sure PE is sufficiently rich, and that it enables (you should be able to see it on the dyno shop's wideband).


    Keep in mind as was said above, without correcting the VE/MAF tables the airmass model will be wrong (meaning that commanded fuel will be a guess and that you will see a bunch of fueling/spark/idle/driveabilty issues).
    Last edited by joecar; February 1st, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Member sonicgroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    If you're short of time you can just go ahead and "rape" the PE to make it sufficiently rich (12.6 for E00 as measured by wideband) and hopefully this will take care of the ping/knock.

    You might want to also make the PE table a little richer down lower... any time the engine sees high load (regardless of rpm) you want to make sure PE is sufficiently rich, and that it enables (you should be able to see it on the dyno shop's wideband).


    Keep in mind as was said above, without correcting the VE/MAF tables the airmass model will be wrong (meaning that commanded fuel will be a guess and that you will see a bunch of fueling/spark/idle/driveabilty issues).
    How different are IFR, VE/MAF tables between a 2000 LS1 and 2002? Since my ECU was reflashed as a 2002, Would copying over a 2000 IFR, VE/MAF table help rich it out and provide a better base for tuning?

    -Shaun

  10. #10
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    1999/2000 had different injectors/heads/cam than 2001/2002, so there are differences in IFR/VE/timing.


    You can copy tables...

    copy all the injector tables, the VE tables, the spark tables, and possibly some other tables

    ( i.e. use the tables that match the physical engine )

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