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Thread: fuel trims causing a VERY lean condition.

  1. #1
    Member rumblebox's Avatar
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    Default fuel trims causing a VERY lean condition.

    A few months ago i posted about a weird stumbling issue i was having with the car. since i had gotten my VE's within 2% across the board(using LTFT's), i ruled it out as a lean condition and assumed it was an ignition problem.

    well, now i know for sure that it's running lean as fuck regardless of what i do with the VE's. it goes even leaner when i plug in the MAF, to the point of being barely drivable from popping and stumbling.

    i figured this out by manually commanding the AFR with the scan tool. when i set it richer than 11.5:1, the problem goes away and runs exactly like it should.... strong, no stink, no popping or stammering. it took me so long to figure out, because i had only associated bad exhaust fumes with a rich condition and blamed it on my previous exhaust leaks causing it to add fuel.

    so i simply added 10% across my whole VE table(which i had previously tuned within 2% trim). it ran great for a minute until it started trimming about 10-15%, returning to the same popping and stammering shenanigans.

    being a fairly inexperienced tuner, a few possibilities come to mind:

    1. my injectors are a different size than advertized, causing my IFR calculations to be WAAAY off... but wouldn't the fuel trims still correct for this?

    2. my engine just likes to run rich? unlikely, being N/A at about 10.2:1 comp.
    LQ4, .040 gaskets, 823 heads, TR-55's

    3. my MAP sensor is malfunctioning..... i say this, because it started throwing a code last week.... even though it still has consistent readings.

    if you're wondering why i'm not using a wideband, i have an LC-1 and spent 3 months trying to get it to work. despite pages of help from experts on several forums, i never got it to work with EFI live using serial or analog connections. i even tested the analog output with my multimeter, and the voltage was right where it should be. so now it's sitting in a box.
    Last edited by rumblebox; September 24th, 2013 at 08:55 AM.
    | 2000 firebird | LQ4 | LS3 top end | 226/231 .600 .602 114 | TCI 3500 | 3" x-pipe under-axle | BMR everything |

  2. #2
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Post:
    - tune file,
    - log file,
    - calc_pids.txt file.


    How is your LC-1 wired up (analog side, and serial side)...?

  3. #3
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Look at table B3605 in the tunetool, in the upper right what units does it say...?

  4. #4
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    1. yes, trims will be able to correct, upto a point.

    2. something is going wrong, the AFR you believe is being commanded is not...


    What fuel do you use (E00, E10, E85)...?



    If the trims start trending positive, this is an indication of a possible air leak.

  5. #5
    Member rumblebox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecar View Post
    1. yes, trims will be able to correct, upto a point.

    2. something is going wrong, the AFR you believe is being commanded is not...


    What fuel do you use (E00, E10, E85)...?



    If the trims start trending positive, this is an indication of a possible air leak.
    the intake gaskets are good. the exhaust is pretty good now. good enough to where it shouldn't add fuel from leaks

    when i command it to 11:1, i assume it's actually closer to like 13-14:1

    it thinks it's correcting with trims, when it's actually unnecessarily cutting fuel.

    | 2000 firebird | LQ4 | LS3 top end | 226/231 .600 .602 114 | TCI 3500 | 3" x-pipe under-axle | BMR everything |

  6. #6
    Member rumblebox's Avatar
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    calc_pids.txt
    buzzard 2013 09 23 - VE 10 percent increase.tun
    Log_0007.efi

    the log file was before i added 10% to the VE's
    | 2000 firebird | LQ4 | LS3 top end | 226/231 .600 .602 114 | TCI 3500 | 3" x-pipe under-axle | BMR everything |

  7. #7
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Ok, if you have no wideband, then edit your calc_pids.txt as follows:

    in CLC-00-305 and CLC-00-315 use Notepad.exe to replace the term {CALC.SELBEN} with {CALC.LTFTBEN}

    ( when you get your wideband working, you will have to undo that change )


    It seems to me that the problem is that you have no wideband, and when the PCM commands other than stoich (CALC.CL becomes zero), CALC.SELBEN tries to use CALC.WO2BEN (which is pegged at 1.7 since wideband is not present), this is messing up your VE/MAF tables.

  8. #8
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    LC-1 serial comms:
    - do you have the terminator plug all the way into the SERIAL IN jack...?
    - do you have a null modem adapter (not just a plain gender bender)...?

  9. #9
    Member rumblebox's Avatar
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    Oh hell. I'll try that now, make a log, and get back with you.

    I made a serial cable first. I'm pretty sure i had the terminator plugged in all the way. is it supposed to be difficult to press in all the way? cuz right now it's as easy as a headphone jack.
    Last edited by rumblebox; September 24th, 2013 at 12:40 PM.
    | 2000 firebird | LQ4 | LS3 top end | 226/231 .600 .602 114 | TCI 3500 | 3" x-pipe under-axle | BMR everything |

  10. #10
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    I had to put a dab of dielectric grease on my terminator plug and then it snapped all the way home.


    With your serial cable, did you try swapping the Rx and Tx signal wires to see which way works...?


    ( I'm sorry if I don't remember all the details from a few months ago )

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