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Thread: correct pid text/expressions for NTK AFRM

  1. #11
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    You only need to correct the analog voltage if it is not correct... measure with a DMM set to 20VDC range, compare to what the pid EXT.AD1 says... if they're the same then there's no need to correct.

    Did you assume the 0.5V correction (subtracting it in the calc pid)...?


    The NTK assumes stoich AFR is 14.55, so you divide by 14.55 to obtain Lambda.


    Post your NTK user manual pdf (I'm only going by memory that it assumes stoich is 14.55).

    EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

    ( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )
    Last edited by joecar; May 9th, 2015 at 08:21 AM.

  2. #12
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    Here is the manual. I did not test anything just used what he sent me. I bought a cam package from him and the wb02. I already had efi live. He sent me a base tune and went from there. Only problem is the car had a dead spot if id snap on it from idle and an occasional backfire. It dynod 458 on a mustang with a local tune shops tune which is worse for driveability than what I started with. So I decided if I want it done right I needed to tune it myself. What are you referring to as far as testing voltage? The expression provided by ntk is for gas with a 14.7afr for stoich I believe. If I want to see my afr for e10 would it need to be a new expression? Your saying since the expression has a -.5 in in it so voltage range is still 0-5v?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  3. #13
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    So if I test voltage and it matches the scan tool I can use the expressions they provide and I only need a new expression for AFR if I want to know what the afr for e10 is if I understand this correctly?

  4. #14
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Your equation is incorrect...

    the correct equation (according to the NTK manual) is: AFR = V*2.75+7.625

    (plug in 0.5V and 4.5V and you'll see AFR 9 and 20 respectively).


    I updated the calc_pids.txt file (see attached)...

    if you need a voltage correction offset, then add/subtract it from the {EXT.AD1} and {EXT.AD2} in CLC-00-003 and CLC-00-004, for example (see red ink):
    Code:
    *CLC-00-003
    V                 0.0            5.0      .1  "{EXT.AD1}-0.2"
    AFR               8.0           18.0      .3  "{CALC.NTK1.V}*2.75+7.625" 
    LAM                .5            1.5      .4  "{CALC.NTK1.AFR}/14.55"
    BEN                .5            1.5      .4  "{CALC.NTK1.LAM}/{SAE.LAMBDA}"
    EDIT: THE NTK USER MANUAL IS WRONG, IT SHOULD USE 14.7 AS STOICH

    ( THEREFORE USE 14.7 INSTEAD OF 14.55 IN YOUR CALC PIDS )

    The calc_pids.txt file should be edited accordingly.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by joecar; May 9th, 2015 at 08:22 AM.

  5. #15
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    I'm seeing {(vout-0.5)× 2.75}+9 for the gasoline formula in the manual I posted?

  6. #16
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camaro10 View Post
    I'm seeing {(vout-0.5)× 2.75}+9 for the gasoline formula in the manual I posted?
    Ah, silly me , I should have realized, that simplifies to this: AFR = V*2.75+7.625

  7. #17
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    Any idea how I can get the commanded lambda pid to work? How did you figure that out? Just trying to learn how this is done and if I use the ntk afr pid is that accurate for e10? In the book they say the display is set for 14.7-stoich. Than below in the example they give they say stoich is 14.55. But if I go on excel and type in the voltages, lambda, values etc the formula comes out to the one ntk provides when the b3601 is at 14.7 within a few decimal points and 14.55 is quite different. The book is pretty misleading

  8. #18
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    or do I take the lambda pid and multiply that by 14.2 for actual afr

  9. #19
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camaro10 View Post
    or do I take the lambda pid and multiply that by 14.2 for actual afr
    Yes, if you really want to see the actual AFR...

    when you see AFR 14.2 you know you're probably in CL... but (from your meory) what AFR should you see when PE is active...?

    It is simpler to ignore AFR and just use Lambda (CL is 1.00, NA PE is 0.86, boost PE is 0.76).

    ( also note that EQR (equivalence ratio) is 1/Lambda )

  10. #20
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camaro10 View Post
    Any idea how I can get the commanded lambda pid to work? How did you figure that out? Just trying to learn how this is done and if I use the ntk afr pid is that accurate for e10? In the book they say the display is set for 14.7-stoich. Than below in the example they give they say stoich is 14.55. But if I go on excel and type in the voltages, lambda, values etc the formula comes out to the one ntk provides when the b3601 is at 14.7 within a few decimal points and 14.55 is quite different. The book is pretty misleading
    You mean SAE.LAMBDA...? What happens when you log it...?

    If SAE.LAMBDA does not work, you may have to use E38.AFRATIO_DMA... and we'll have to edit this into your calc pids.

    Also try logging GM.EQIVRATIO.

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