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Thread: E38 no start issue

  1. #11
    Forum tyhee Site Admin GMPX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz View Post
    In the 2014 E38 OEM configuration the Starter Relay Type is set to "Apply to 12V".
    Quote Originally Posted by gmh308 View Post
    TOdd that the Start Relay Diagnostic enable/disable is missing - G1219.
    If you set the starter relay type to 'Not Used' then it never checks the relay therefore the diag test is not needed.
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  2. #12
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    No prob mate, Taz.

    VE's for some reason use a 12V output to run the crank relay. Other GM cars use a ground to operate the crank relay (pin 67). Maybe its an Australian design rule or something that specifies 12V vs grounding. Or maybe it saved some wire . Or maybe just the design engineer's preference.

    In either case, it wont operate/crank without the full theft deterrent system in operation. ECM + BCM + Dash + Anti Theft Device + Key. Crank signal via CAN. No CAN message to ECM to crank, then no crank.

    VATS patch doesn't replace that daisy chain, it just lets the coils and injectors work without the VATS "box" being "ticked" in the ECM - and the engine starts if it is cranked.

    So just direct connect your starter motor - no ECM - with the right interlocks of course.

    12656930 works fine in a conversion with VATS etc done.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMPX View Post
    If you set the starter relay type to 'Not Used' then it never checks the relay therefore the diag test is not needed.
    DTC 0615 still pokes its nose out Ross .

  4. #14
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    Correct:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taz View Post
    The VATS patch will allow the engine to run without a BCM, but the Starter Relay will need to be rewired for direct (or manual) activation.

  5. #15
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Ok, so now starter relay is to be activated by directly (i.e. other than BCM)(with correct P/N interlock of course), thanks gmh308 and Taz.

  6. #16
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    OK thanks heaps for your replies guys, especially considering that its Christmas/New Year.... BTW Happy New Year to you'all and the EFI Live crew.
    This start relay part is quite interesting. The only diagrams I have of the E38 stuff are U.S. diagrams I found on the net way back, and although I have most of the VE and VF stuff, it only shows ecm to sensor stuff, and not schematics of the start relays etc, whereas the U.S. stuff does and it shows that pin X1-52 provides ground to the start relay, so I "assumed" this applied to our Australian E38's.... so from what you guys are saying, this is how our remote key stuff works (turn key in VE and button in VF) where it sends signal to BCM and if the ecm and bcm agree, the bcm sends 12v to the relay, instead of the earlier models where the 12v came directly from the key to the start relay, and considering this in an automatic, then if the shifter is not in P/N then the bcm and ecm will not agree (via CAN) via X1-1 from TCM to ecm, which means no crank. Does this mean that the Ground at the start relay is hard grounded in VE's and VF's.??? or is there more to that part. Does anyone have a diagram of this???
    Also from what you are saying, even if I run a BCM, there is no way to run a P/N safety switch to prevent starting in gear, which is a legal requirement??? unless you fabricate a mechanical switch to shifter.......????? Are you sure of this, or can a Patch be made for this Ross????

    OK, the next issue Im having is, I cant seem to get the Anti theft state to read.
    I can activate the Anti Theft State GM.VDT, but it doesnt show up in Other PIDs on DASH.B, so I am unable to read if I have actually disable VATS
    Am I doing something wrong???
    The other thing was I posted up what I had set the parameters to in VATS and Crank. I had most set as NO in this attempt, as I have seen quite a few "other" tunes and this seems to vary a lot, and from what I have read on here, it seems Type 2 or 3, and VATS Patch along with Full Flash is the main requirements????
    Is this true, as I have tired just about all combos, but I guess if I could see VATS State, it may then prove I have something wrong in my harness.

    I am sure I have it right, as I have made many VE style custom harnesses (mostly based on VZ style) but in this case I have used the VF harness and have the ecu neatly tucked in between the battery and the fuse box which means the X2 plug has not been touched, and the VF harness already has the X1 plug included in the engine harness, so there was only minor mods made to the overall harness to adapt to the VS main body harness utilising the VS fuses and relays, which is how I have done the other VE to VS conversions, but these were manual trans, and I had no problems.

  7. #17
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    It would be a "nice to have" to have the patch you mention, though it would be a big investment in code time for zero return.

    All the answers are here anyway. Try not to over think this.

    Why chase the anti theft state? Would wager that Ross' wizard VATS patch turns a corner way before that.

  8. #18
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    Not sure what you mean by this gmh308, if the U.S. stuff had grounded start relay, surely the code is there already, and it makes using a 6L80e much more user friendly as well as passing the required legalities when trying to licence conversions, hotrods etc
    And the anti theft state would let me know if I was barking up a dead horses what not..... lol, by letting me know I had met the required conditions, and help me with diagnostics.

  9. #19
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    Update, today I discovered that F9 Data shows Theft Deterrent stuff... amazing.... and because these states are a little confusing, I decided to full flash my original factory tune back in with no mods at all so that I could compare. Then checked out F9 again, and it was exactly the same, so I full flashed my Vats tune back in.... no difference... so then started making changes and even radical changes to the Vats and cranking stuff, which aslo made no difference, so I full flashed it as well.... no difference
    So then I changed my laptop and flashscan over to my LS1 in my 32 roadster with no vats and checked F9, and interestingly it was nearly exactly the same apart for VTD-VTD1, VTD Fuel Control read No, whereas all E38 comparisons read Yes. Click image for larger version. 

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    Does anyone have any experience with this??? and what I should expect these states to read on a E38

  10. #20
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    To make that clearer, has anyone actually managed to pass the Vats Disable on VF Commodore conversion using the original OS 12656930 for a 2014 L77 model and then taken any notice of the F9 states in the Scantool.

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