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Thread: 454 411 Swap

  1. #1
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    Default 454 411 Swap

    I did a search and found nothing. I have a 97 3500 with a 454 and 2.3L Whipple with associated Whippletronics. As one can imagine, the potential is there but it doesn't hit as hard as I know it should, especially after driving a stock one with no blower. The plan is to upgrade injectors, ditch Whippletronics, and go full 411. Problem is the 454 never came in a 411, so while transferring timing tables and VE/MAF tables may be a 90% solution, I'm still concerned about cold start, idle, and all the little stuff that I don't know that I don't know if that makes sense. I know I'm not the first to do this, and I'm wondering if there are any threads I missed on my search that would be worth my time?
    1998 GMC Sierra K1500 5.7/4L80E, longtubes, 411 w/COS 5, marine cam/intake, Whipple. 91 octane at 6000'.
    1997 GMC Sierra K3500 7.4/4L80E, 411 w/COS 3, Whipple, small cam.
    2004 Corvette Z06 with longtubes.

  2. #2
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    I'm not super familiar with BBC, GM did offer the 8.1/496 BBC with the 0411 PCM in the Silverado/Sierras, so that's the base tune I'd start with. There's an 01 file on the DropBox repo that is for an 8.1, ideally an 02 OS would be the best but the 01 file is a pretty common OS (12208322) and the COS is 012700xx. It's with the Allison trans, so you'll need to seg swap the Transmission and Transmission Diagnostics segments for your 4L60/80E.

    I know if your engine isnt DBW, all the 8.1s were so you'll have to see if you either want to go DBW and associated electronics OR just disable it in the tune.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, starting the mods
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

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    Hmm I was thinking of adapting the VE/MAF/timing values from a blackbox 454 tune, I imagine the units are the same but haven't verified. I could convert to DBW with a 6.5 diesel pedal, but at the moment I'll just need the thing running right ASAP. The trans shift points are so friggin weird right now I'm not sure if it's intentional or not. I have no control now, so will be better able to deal with this with data in front of me. I'm thinking whatever lies the Whippletronics are telling the stock PCM are to blame for the shift points (it appears to intercept the TPS), the truck seems mechanically sound. I do like the idea of cherry picking some of the start and idle bits from an 8.1 though, those ought to be WAY closer than the 5.7 values.
    1998 GMC Sierra K1500 5.7/4L80E, longtubes, 411 w/COS 5, marine cam/intake, Whipple. 91 octane at 6000'.
    1997 GMC Sierra K3500 7.4/4L80E, 411 w/COS 3, Whipple, small cam.
    2004 Corvette Z06 with longtubes.

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    I dont know if DBW is required or not to make it work properly, you could probably get away with your existing DBC.

    To get a base map, for spark it'd be easy to interpolate the values. VE/MAF could be a bit harder, especially since we're not sure what the Whipple-tronics do for spark/fueling.
    ~Erik~
    2013 Sonic RS Manual - 1.4L I4T E78, starting the mods
    2008 TrailBlazer SS 3SS AWD Summit White - LS2 E67/T42, bolt ons, suspension, etc.
    2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT 4X4 Summit White - 4.2L I6 P10, lifted, wheels, etc.

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    Well IMO the VE/MAF would be no different than adding the 411 with the blower all at the same time. I'd use COS5 which has fuel and spark provisions for above atmospheric conditions, I figure I'll just pull 1 degree per pound of boost as a starting point with a stock spark map intended for 87 octane and 91 in the tank. While monitoring for knock, I ought to be able to safely bang out my calc.maft, the only real guess as a starting point would be the above atmospheric fueling. I think I'd command 11.5:1 AFR for WOT fueling and go from there. There's a good chance I'll hit the dyno when I feel satisfied with my work to see what the truck really wants for timing, unless it's so spark limited I can just tune off of the knock sensor.
    1998 GMC Sierra K1500 5.7/4L80E, longtubes, 411 w/COS 5, marine cam/intake, Whipple. 91 octane at 6000'.
    1997 GMC Sierra K3500 7.4/4L80E, 411 w/COS 3, Whipple, small cam.
    2004 Corvette Z06 with longtubes.

  6. #6
    Lifetime Member SS2win's Avatar
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    Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?
    2001 Camaro SS #2020
    Stock LS1 w/InconTT | REV Springs | Ti retainers | M6 | McLeod Twin Clutch
    UMI RR K Member | SLP Subframe Connectors | Global West TA | BMR PHB | Metco LCA
    996 Brake Kit| 17" CCW Classics | 17x11 ZR1 Replicas on all four corners

    425@6lbs | ???@12lbs | EFILive Custom OS3 | !MAF | SD
    11.73@12x/1.7 on worn out nittos... yaaawn!

  7. #7
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS2win View Post
    Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?
    COS5 is based on OS 12212156... does this OS work with the Vortec CKP/CMP signals...?

    If not, then I can see the CKP relector from EFI Connection being used.

    ~Moderator~

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS2win View Post
    Wait now, is cos5 going to work with the vortec cam/crank sensors? Can you change the crank reluctor size?
    If you use the Express van as a base tune yes it does work. I ASSume the reluctor is buried somewhere in the 1s and 0s there. If you wish to retain 4LO, an element of the late S10 is also required.
    1998 GMC Sierra K1500 5.7/4L80E, longtubes, 411 w/COS 5, marine cam/intake, Whipple. 91 octane at 6000'.
    1997 GMC Sierra K3500 7.4/4L80E, 411 w/COS 3, Whipple, small cam.
    2004 Corvette Z06 with longtubes.

  9. #9
    Joe (Moderator) joecar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supercharged111 View Post
    If you use the Express van as a base tune yes it does work. I ASSume the reluctor is buried somewhere in the 1s and 0s there. If you wish to retain 4LO, an element of the late S10 is also required.
    Ok this ^ is the key.

    ~Moderator~

  10. #10
    Lifetime Member SS2win's Avatar
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    I had wondered about that and was going to try it one day bit no need for SD and truck runs too well to mess with it. Thanks
    2001 Camaro SS #2020
    Stock LS1 w/InconTT | REV Springs | Ti retainers | M6 | McLeod Twin Clutch
    UMI RR K Member | SLP Subframe Connectors | Global West TA | BMR PHB | Metco LCA
    996 Brake Kit| 17" CCW Classics | 17x11 ZR1 Replicas on all four corners

    425@6lbs | ???@12lbs | EFILive Custom OS3 | !MAF | SD
    11.73@12x/1.7 on worn out nittos... yaaawn!

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