VIN Lock gripes.....

[GMPX]

Alot of people are enquiring about the licensing arrangements the Tuning side of EFILive will offer.
I am not about to announce that here as we have not decided yet, but I do want to give you all something to think about.

As a rough figure one of the other unlimited tuning packages out there will run you up near 10K for the whole deal, so many people think this is unfair, I personally do not, here's why.

The person that purchases an unlimited version probably owns a workshop that sees say 50 - 100 cars per year getting the PCM's tuned, not to mention any mail order tunes they may offer.
Now this company happens to be really cheap, only $200 per tune, so worst case, 50 cars x $200 = $10,000, there is the purchase price back in one year. Reality is no-one is that cheap so probably halve that time.

Now, to develop that product there has been countless hours of work put in with the software, hardware (no simple 2 transistor circuits here folks!!), testing, R&D etc. If somebody can justify to me why you would then sell that product for $400 or so dollars with unlimited usage to someone who will make more profit than you in one day I am listening.

Do you think large corporations only buy one copy of the software to use on 100's of PC's??.

People need to understand the LS1 PCM is a rather different beast to the ECM's of the 80's and early 90's that had simple table structures, if they
were flash based the hardware to connect to a PC was very simple too, that's why many freeware and DIY tuning solutions were developed, who remembers the DIY_EFI List?.

Please feel free to flame me. I will once again state we have not finalised our license structure so comments are welcome.

[bink]

I don't think people realize the limited market size of LS1 "Tuner/Editor" users. It is impossible to get economies of scale in a limited- end- user market.
I'm a dentist. We, as dentists, are a small limited market. A known number, identifiable, worldwide. There is only ONE way to reduce costs, substantially, of the specialty products we buy - reduce quality. We see this constantly.
Individuals os shops cannot expect major price breaks in a limited market. With the birth of several "Editor" type products will come competition - especially in pricing. David rarely slays Goliath. Goliath usually has the better business sense and much deeper pockets.

The US trucking landscape is littered with trucking discounters after deregulation. Bottom line -> Profit margins.

Just my two cents.
joel

After rereading this I better clarify - I agree with GMPXs statement for the above stated reasons. There is a cost of doing business in a continuing concern. Most have never run a business, on a day to day basis, and DO NOT understand costs or pricing structure. I am not talking about razorblades in a worldwide market or Microsoft. A small market is totally different.

[Steve Bryant]

mind sets. Obviously, FlashScan (and its competitors) will fill a niche in a niche market. The vast majority of owner/operators of vehicles with LS1-based powertrains will do no aftermarket tuning whatsoever. Perhaps 15 percent of these owner/operators are enthusiasts to some degree and will purchase an aftermarket product. Probably 80 percent of that 15 percent will purchased a "canned tune" which will retail for $300 to $450 (USD). The remaining 20 percent will buy a PCM flasher like FlashScan. Now, based on my hypothetical percentages, this means that the PCM flasher market represents three percent of owner/operators (.15 * .20 = .03 or 3 %). Some of these folks have already bought into the LS1Edit system and will not switch due to their investment in time (learning curve) and money. Therefore, this is truly a niche in a niche market.

I agree with EMARKAY in the market segment/pricing structure breakdown. I agree with his quantities of VIN's and the relative afford-ability of the PCM Flasher. The supply/demand curve should dictate pricing points which are directly proportional to the need and profit potential of the person doing the PCM flashing. I trust you guys to set fair pricing points. I trust you guys to develop a superior product. I trust you guys to support that product in an uncompromising manner as you have demonstrated with EFILive. But I also trust you guys to be fair and equitable to yourselves. You are running a business and not a benevolent aid society. We will pay you to be knowledgeable, not naive.

It would be naive of me as a consumer to expect that FlashScan will be a superior product of high value that is priced at a shareware level. However, as a consumer who does not plan to be flashing others (literally or figuratively or in any other way) I would simply do without if the product is priced unreasonably. But I don't expect that at all. As I said in the last paragraph, I trust you guys to be fair and equitable to yourselves [and your customer base].

[Doctor Bob]

My feelings are as follows:
when the guys decide they will let everybody know all about the pricing and licensing structure, and until then its all speculation.
Knowing some of the people involved in this project pretty well i have complete faith in their ability to make business decisions.
The cost will be fair for the product i am sure.
Everyone has to appreciate the level of service and commitment these guys provide.

My 2 bobs worth...hehehe
Rob

[mnotx]

I just plain like the way these guys do business. They stand behind their product and address problems quickly and thoroughly. That is worth a lot to me.

[GMPX]

Thanks to you all, sounds like most people are quite understanding of the situation.

As it is now, nobody can have a Monopoly on the LS1 tuning market which will keep prices fair. You all know EFILive has never been unreasonable with it's pricing, so you might pay a bit more that some other scantools out there but as we know it is worth the extra $$.

We are not out to rip you guys off, but the pricing has to work for both sides of the fence.

I have been a consumer long enough to REALLY understand the old saying "You get what you pay for".

[dissonance]

1-3 VIN
4-10 VIN
10-25 VIN
26-99 VIN
and unlimited

Something along this line would work very well... I have talked to MRK about this and I think if users wanted an extra car added to the cable then a one time fee $$? Would be set and that’s the upgrade cost for another VIN to added... 100% VIN un-lock will not work because abuse would go on.

Some home users have more then one car or more then one car in the family that they might want to do some simple tuning to. This would also come in to play with people that have a car and truck.

Something I would also like to see is the ability to read all pcms but only flash the one you have paid for. The reason for this is comparison of PCM’s in stock or modified cars. This would also make it easy for users to pass around there tune so other users have place to start/compare. Also add away to clear the VIN out of the file so it could not be linked back to a car. Like a simple value file + car type/make and year with no other information of the PCM.

[Highlander]

Well... how do you feel.. for me to start I have to spend what I earn in almost a year... Hey Im an enthusiast and I feel its a bit unfair for extremely small busineses like me.. where if a license costs you 250 (to say an example) I cant do a simple tune... or a change this only tune... because I would loose money...

10K for a tunner package may seem correct to you when you have people like pcmforless.. madz28... ED Wright.. Fast Chips... SuperChips... etc..

but for instance... a small place like PR.. I have only tuned 4 ls1 cars... 4 in 2 years! and I've gone to the reunions etc. but my pricing is so high (cost of getting software license, etc etc etc) that I cant really go lower. You would assume that people with a corvette has $ to pay for a tune, but the reality here is that people want to see something tangible and tunning is not... The rush here is imports.. not domestics... It is totally different down at Australia (hence why people like you exist).

I would pay 3k for a complete ls1 tuner.. but not 5k and not 8k... I wont get that ammount of $ out in one year...lack of publicity? i have made mine, but here people are not willing to shell the ammount of $ (even though I do have a wideband and my results are proven and happy costumers).

I have worked on ls1 pcms.. and there is certainly LOTS of work involved just to develop calibrations. And a lot of knowledge from a lot of years to get where you are and do what you like and do best, but not everyone chose the schooling you chose and be ahead 10-15 years than others, so some of us need to "rely" on other's peoples work...

Its not easy to shell 10k in a one minute payment when you earn $5.15/hour. A year has 2080 working hours (40x52) so that is almost one years pay... I do eat.. I do need shelter (dont live with parents).

When I decided on efilive it was not easy shelling the $ also, but I did it because the $ was worth the product...

So any help is gladly appreciated...

A fancy scanner makes things easier... a tuner all it needs is to flash/Read which are the most important things..

Look at it this way... GM charges you $895/ year... it means that is 10 years of flashing pcms (although not custom for now) but in 10 years I doubt I'd be using the same software you guys are developing now. CAN to come ahead.

Dont get me wrong guys... im not saying that your product is not worth it its just that its a bit hard and the business is small for an inmense ammount of $. Even with the price structuring of 25 licenses.. I wouldn't do small things.

When was the last time you heard people giving over tunercats programs?? they were extremely cheap and not vin locked... People kept them to themselves. Try asking for it in the forums...

Another way of seeing it...
It takes around 3k to get a Really good set of tools to build an engine, replace, and remove... Those tools work "forever" and those tools will work for newer cars and older cars... They are "unlocked". Imagine Craftsman vin locking your tools... if you use them in something else you get an electric SHOCK :lol:

Now if 10k gave me.. all cars.. all trucks.. all v6 3.6 l67 and l36... its really worth it...

but just for ls1s? i do not think its fair, or at least not for me... PCMForless and all those mail order tunners may be a different idea or way of looking at it.

[Highlander]

[quote="dissonance"]

Something I would also like to see is the ability to read all pcms but only flash the one you have paid for. The reason for this is comparison of PCM’s in stock or modified cars. This would also make it easy for users to pass around there tune so other users have place to start/compare. Also add away to clear the VIN out of the file so it could not be linked back to a car. Like a simple value file + car type/make and year with no other information of the PCM.

Like "ls1edit" does?

ls1edit does read ALL pcms.. You cannot see the tune, but you can read it...

Actually I feel its stupid to not let you see the tune even if you didn't license it.

[jimmyblue]

In my opinion, you already have copy-lock in the form of the cable.

Further locking the software to one VIN only costs user resale value
and prevents them from tuning for friends (or acquaintances...).

Whether you see side-tuning as a sales loss or a marketing leader
depends I guess. But if this product comes out with a VIN-locked
"protection" scheme then the only way I would buy it is with some
written guarantee of transferrability. No way am I buying another
zero-resale-value tuner product (already have a Predator).

I think you should stick to the same locking scheme as EFILive,
which is to say, none aside from the cable. Do you think having
that software usable on cars beside the owners' hasn't brought
you new customers, once they've seen what it can do?