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Thread: E38/E67 ECM Speed Density Virtual VE table

  1. #21
    EFILive Developer Site Admin Blacky's Avatar
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    Hi Howard,

    The zones are defined by two other tables (one for MAp and one for RPM) that you can modify. In its most simple form, you set up 4 RM points and 5 MAP points that all together define 5 RPM sections and 6 MAP sections. Those sections divide up the virtual VE table into 30 zones: 5x6=30 zones.

    I have written up a atutorial on how the Virtual VE tables are used (including the zoning) in the EFILive software. It will be uplaoded to our web server shortly.

    Regards
    Paul
    Before asking for help, please read this.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacky
    Hi Howard,

    The zones are defined by two other tables (one for MAp and one for RPM) that you can modify. In its most simple form, you set up 4 RM points and 5 MAP points that all together define 5 RPM sections and 6 MAP sections. Those sections divide up the virtual VE table into 30 zones: 5x6=30 zones.

    I have written up a atutorial on how the Virtual VE tables are used (including the zoning) in the EFILive software. It will be uplaoded to our web server shortly.

    Regards
    Paul


    Very cool! I can't wait to get that tutorial and do some reading

    Ed

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed@Late Model Speed
    Very cool! I can't wait to get that tutorial and do some reading

    Ed
    Here it is.

    http://download2.efilive.com/Tutoria...20Tutorial.pdf

  4. #24

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    Ok........please clarify this;

    The stock LS7 VE table falls over very sharp after 105 KPA. This is why going to a 2 Bar and just scaling it is a problem since once the 2 bar reads past 105 KPA the VE total sum value drops off and hence no more fuel. Correct?

    Now....is it my understanding that you guys have provided us two new additional VE tables (2 and 2 BAR) so we can start a new tune with a bigger MAP sensor by selecting one of the appropriate Virtual VE tables? If so do you have to do this with the IMTV closed one as well?

    Once you select the starting VE table, how does it get saved?

    Howard

    www.redline-motorsports.net

    1-954-703-5560

    2006 ZO6 895/866 with APS TT
    2010 SSRS Camaro HTR-900TT (798/801)
    2011 HTR-850R Camaro
    2012 ZL1 Auto (10.33@135 MPH) Video Here!

  5. #25
    EFILive Developer Site Admin Blacky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    Ok........please clarify this;

    The stock LS7 VE table falls over very sharp after 105 KPA. This is why going to a 2 Bar and just scaling it is a problem since once the 2 bar reads past 105 KPA the VE total sum value drops off and hence no more fuel. Correct?

    Now....is it my understanding that you guys have provided us two new additional VE tables (2 and 2 BAR) so we can start a new tune with a bigger MAP sensor by selecting one of the appropriate Virtual VE tables? If so do you have to do this with the IMTV closed one as well?

    Once you select the starting VE table, how does it get saved?

    Howard
    The part you need to get your head around is that the virtual VE tables are just that - virtual. The data in the VE tables is never saved back into the *.tun file. The data from the VE tables is converted into VE coefficients and saved back into the coefficients table.

    If you display the 1-bar VE table, modify it and generate new coefficients, the coefficients that are generated will not take any MAP value higher than 105kPa into account - those map values may shoot skywards and/or shoot for the floor, or they may stay flat. It just depends on the math.

    If you display the 2-bar VE table, modify it and generate new coefficients, the coefficients that are generated will not take any MAP value higher than 201kPa into account - those map values may shoot skywards and/or shoot for the floor, or they may stay flat. It just depends on the math.

    If you display the 3-bar VE table, modify it and generate new coefficients, the coefficients that are generated will not take any MAP value higher than 255kPa into account - those map values may shoot skywards and/or shoot for the floor, or they may stay flat. It just depends on the math. (Note: you will never see VE values greater thenm 255 because we neither calculate them nor display them.)

    Just remember, each time you "generate coefficients", youare asking EFILive to rebuild the entire VE structure for the engine based on the shape that you have configured in the currently displayed Virtual VE table.

    Regards
    Paul
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  6. #26
    EFILive Developer Site Admin Blacky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    If so do you have to do this with the IMTV closed one as well?
    Howard
    Yes - if your engine/controller uses an IMTV.

    If not, then both sets of VE coefficients will be identical. In that case, after you've generated the "IMTV open" set of coefficients, just copy the "IMTV open" virtual VE table (1, 2 or 3 bar) over to the matching size "IMVT closed" Virtual VE table and then generate coefficients for "IMVT closed" as well.

    You will end up with two identical sets of VE coefficients.

    Regards
    Paul
    Before asking for help, please read this.

  7. #27
    Lifetime Member GMPX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    If so do you have to do this with the IMTV closed one as well?
    I've only seen this option used on the V6's at this stage, so for GenIV work this should not be an issue.

    Cheers,
    Ross
    I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a support ticket.

  8. #28

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    Sorry for the reduntant questions as I'm sure you guys have explained this stuff a million times.

    The 2 and 3 bar maps that are shown in LIVE; they are just stock maps that have been mathamatically carried out to there respect bar?

    I understand that the 3D maps are our way of making changes "old school". After we make the changes to the "old school" virtual VE table, Live then does the math and converts that data back to the coef. tables which are part of all base E38 files. If we build a custom map with rpm and map(kpa) and use VE Sum as data will it track the VE table?

    Once changes are made to the VVET hitting generate does the math and modifies B8001 and B8002. Then the file is saved. When we reopen the tune file will the VVET table still show the changes or does it need to be regenerated back?

    Going SD;

    use a 2 bar map sensor, rescale like we always did before, disable the MAF through the fail frequency parameter (or remove and relocate the IAT), force open loop, building some custom maps and start logging BEN's? Anthing that is different for this process on a E38?

    Thanks for your patience.

    Howard

    www.redline-motorsports.net

    1-954-703-5560

    2006 ZO6 895/866 with APS TT
    2010 SSRS Camaro HTR-900TT (798/801)
    2011 HTR-850R Camaro
    2012 ZL1 Auto (10.33@135 MPH) Video Here!

  9. #29
    Lifetime Member GMPX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    The 2 and 3 bar maps that are shown in LIVE; they are just stock maps that have been mathamatically carried out to there respect bar?
    Correct. This is why some appear very odd when in to boost levels, GM never 'mapped' the coefficients beyond 105kPa unless the engine is boosted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    I understand that the 3D maps are our way of making changes "old school". After we make the changes to the "old school" virtual VE table, Live then does the math and converts that data back to the coef. tables which are part of all base E38 files. If we build a custom map with rpm and map(kpa) and use VE Sum as data will it track the VE table?
    To a point, there are some trends on the Virtual VE table that cannot be reproduced using coefficients, it's the mathematical limitation of the formulas. But, for the most part the coefficients can be made to mimic any graph you plot in the Virtual VE table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    Once changes are made to the VVET hitting generate does the math and modifies B8001 and B8002. Then the file is saved. When we reopen the tune file will the VVET table still show the changes or does it need to be regenerated back?
    The VVET is a plot of the figures in the coefficients, when the coefficients have changed the VVET will show it in graph form. When you are changing the VVET it's only a table that is in existance in the PC RAM, it's not in the tun file, it only gets written back to the tun file as coefficient numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redline Motorsports
    Going SD;

    use a 2 bar map sensor, rescale like we always did before, disable the MAF through the fail frequency parameter (or remove and relocate the IAT), force open loop, building some custom maps and start logging BEN's? Anthing that is different for this process on a E38?
    That sounds about right to me

    Cheers,
    Ross
    I no longer monitor the forum, please either post your question or create a support ticket.

  10. #30

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    I guess when you think about tuning past 105 KPA if you can get close with the VE, and use PE for fine tuning...........you'll be in good shape. This being said as your statement sounds like that due to the math "runout" you can't hit values bang on.

    Personally, just being able to get around the MAF limitations and to log into boost would be worth it.

    What is with the intake cam angle adjustments?

    HT

    www.redline-motorsports.net

    1-954-703-5560

    2006 ZO6 895/866 with APS TT
    2010 SSRS Camaro HTR-900TT (798/801)
    2011 HTR-850R Camaro
    2012 ZL1 Auto (10.33@135 MPH) Video Here!

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