LMM Programming History & CVN's Explained

[Chalky]

Ross:

I do have some good news. I think I can put you in touch with a lawyer that would be willing to spend your very last dollar to prove your innocence.

[GMPX]

This industry does seem to be obsessed with the 'we were first' concept, it's not something I loose sleep over, so if another tuner was to offer history clearing first and in a months time after they did they weren't begging for change outside a pizza shop then I'd be happy to release it

Cheers,
Ross

[The Neens]

Well, what a quandary. If that's the way you feel, shouldn't you just recommend that we stop tuning our GM products, and stop selling efi live? That seems to be what you're advocating in this post. Yet we know you as one of the "tuning Gods" that brings us this product.

I don't see it as a "quandary"...I'll continue to modify my vehicle(s) and happily deal with any issues that I am responsible for...It's called hotrodding and I'm willing to deal with consequences...

Those who aren't, perhaps you, should leave their vehicles stock...

[McRat]

My prediction is that the handheld market will defeat it, or diesel folk will switch to harness boxes. If I were a harness box company, I'd be solidly targetting the gasoline market about now.

[Chalky]

There is a tuner on the G8 forum who claims he has the technology and is using it in his tunes to arrive at the proper CVN even after tuning. He calls it a stealth tune. I didn't follow the posts far enough but so far, he has not been challenged.

If there is a void for this feature, someone will rush into fill it. Possibly someone with much less to lose and more to gain by being the first to market. It may already be starting. Paul/Ross have evidently shown that it can be done. It might have also been the easy part of the equation.

[fire0021]

I don't see it as a "quandary"...I'll continue to modify my vehicle(s) and happily deal with any issues that I am responsible for...It's called hotrodding and I'm willing to deal with consequences...

Those who aren't, perhaps you, should leave their vehicles stock...

x2.

[Chalky]

Well, we can clear it, it's been done here on our test LMM ECM, part of the 'fun' was the challenge of being able to do it.
But I sat back and thought about what could result from allowing people to do it and really no good can come from it.

If you have made a change to 'just' the speedo section to adjust for wheel sizes then you should be safe with GM as the ECM will only store that the Speedo segment was changed. It is that smart, it knows what segment was changed.

I also understand in your situation bdr2008 that you would want it cleared.
I don't want to shelve the idea of doing it, but so far the only thing I can see it doing is getting EFILive sued or GM making it 10 times harder to program these vehicles. Currently compared to other manufacturers GM have made it reasonably open for programming, they could turn that around very fast, especially using Bosch ECM's.
Have a look what the Europeans have to do to program some of the Bosch ECM's -
http://www.evc.de/en/product/ols/bdm/default.asp
Yep, remove the bottom cover every time they want to program something as the OBD-II programming system the BMW's etc use is impossible to hack. GM could always go down that path too.

We will be at SEMA this year so I am sure we will get a feel for what we should do from users and industry people...GM have a stand there right!

Cheers,
Ross

Ross:

Just reviewing this thread again and have a question for you. As it currently stands, do you know believe that GM may be leaving the door open for tuners such as EFILive by not embracing a stricter/more difficult technology in regards to ECM tuning?

If you do nothing, what is to stop GM from changing their technology again to make your current tuning package obsolete anyway?

[MMLMM]

I don't see it as a "quandary"...I'll continue to modify my vehicle(s) and happily deal with any issues that I am responsible for...It's called hotrodding and I'm willing to deal with consequences...

Those who aren't, perhaps you, should leave their vehicles stock...

Exacty, We make our own choices with the options givin to us.

Besides, GM/Bosh will lock up the ECM as much as they want to. They know it can be cracked, if they want to implement more security they can and will, other wise, there bacicly are getting the security "they're paying for" so to speak....


If I were to find a crack I'd publicly let it out, if they didnt like that, there problem for not making it tougher...Correct?

[GMPX]

Just reviewing this thread again and have a question for you. As it currently stands, do you know believe that GM may be leaving the door open for tuners such as EFILive by not embracing a stricter/more difficult technology in regards to ECM tuning?

If you do nothing, what is to stop GM from changing their technology again to make your current tuning package obsolete anyway?

Not so much leaving the door open but more hiding the door key under the mat. They don't use any encryption or compression systems in the programming process, some Bosch ECM's do, so the technology is there (at least from one ECM supplier). You are right, maybe the ECM used in the 4.5L Dmax will be locked down beyond anything we have seen before, I have no idea.
The reverse engineering process could be made considerably harder if they wanted to make it so. Thing is, everything is hackable, look at Vista, M$ said that nobody could hack the licensing, I think within days people were posting hacks for it!, imagine how much M$ spent trying to stop that happening.
You have to keep in mind the only reason GM now have this programming tracking is to stop bogus warranty claims, by removing this you are going to upset the General, surely.

As we learned from the O2 Sims company that got shutdown, disclaimers are apparently worthless.

We had a similar discussion on the DPF/Cat removal, yes it is illegal in the US to do this, but, as a real world example, there is a company in New Zealand fitting Duramax's to boats, they needed to remove VATS, DPF, CAT etc, sometimes there is genuine reasons to remove such items where it is not practical to use them or they are not needed.
What will be interesting is what happens with GM's ECM exchange process, normally if you buy a new ECM you can give them your old 'core' and get a discount, so does this mean the spare parts stores will be selling refurbished ECM's will a bad history or will Bosch erase it for them?

Either way, this is an interesting dicussion and it's good to see that our customers are divided on this issue too, I don't feel so bad.

Cheers,
Ross

[Sparky8370]

I don't see it as a "quandary"...I'll continue to modify my vehicle(s) and happily deal with any issues that I am responsible for...It's called hotrodding and I'm willing to deal with consequences...

Those who aren't, perhaps you, should leave their vehicles stock...

Not for you, for Ross. To release or not release, that is the question I was referring to.
Because, yes there are legitimate reasons to erase it. If the whole warranty gets voided because of a tune that did not cause damage, well that's BS.

Do you think GM will fail more legitimate claims because of this, or avoid more erroneous claims because of this. Just think if they had this technology in 2001.
Dear Valued Customer, We are denying your claim for warranty on your injectors because of your tow tune. There is no problem with our injectors, regardless of what you may read on the internet.
Wow, they could have saved a ton of money by ripping people off back then.
And I have an older vehicle. I don't care about warranty. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. When I play, I do pay.