IAT temps changing my VE

[Dale]

You sure learn faster then I. Ive been at this about a year, 200+ tunes. And its still not right.

Atleast I got my speedo right!

[Dale]

Finally got some dry weather. Here are yesterdays morning and afternoon logs, along with my tune. AM, it was 73deg outside. On the way home it was around 88-89deg.

I did a log this AM, will do one in the afternoon as well. I am finding I am getting heat soak from my motor even while driving This is getting moved up on the list of things to do.

[redhardsupra]

Dale, I'll look at it in the evening, I got no EFILive (or Windows for that matter) at work.

[Dale]

Thats fine, no major rush. I'm going to edit my tune once more, then start working on trying to fix my heat soak issue.

Trying to come up with ideas and its not going well.

[redhardsupra]

Dale, you don't have enough PIDs in there to make this useful unfortunately. Bias/filter stuff is based off airflow, and you're not logging airflow or airmass, or airflow frequency, or anything else that I could derive the airflow with. IAC, cracker, follower, all this stuff doesn't help me any.
so here's a list of what you need:
speed
IAT
ECT
DYNCYLAIR_DMA
DYNAIRTEMP_DMA or CHRGTEMP_DMA (whichever works)
MAFflow and MAFfreq (if you're using MAF)
VETABLE_DMA (if you're using SD)
AFR (commanded)
AFR (wideband, if you dont have any STFT's will do)
IBPW's

and it's best if you log it all in metric, makes math much easier.
sorry for the bad news, should've told you this earlier

[WeathermanShawn]

Dale:

While you are waiting for a full-blown test using multiple Pids and a lot of intricate time-consuming parameters and numerous variables, here is a interesting alternative suggestion.

While you may or may not have access to a Roadrunner PCM, under the EFILive forum 'Roadrunner', is an interesting tutorial concerning VE smoothing using Strims as a method of refining the VE curve.

While it is perhaps more specific to vehicles utilizing closed-loop function, the technique may still be of help to you.

Since Strims vary due to environmental changes, the technique described allows you to utilize those changes directly back into the VE curve. In effect it is addressing some of your IAT bias concerns you are trying to address.

I am sure on a purely scientific engineering standpoint that someone will dismiss the technique or tell you why it will not work, but I would just simply suggest you take a look at it.

Tuning is more fun if something works, and unless you have a Doctorate degree in math or engineering, might be more rewarding to to something that might may satisfy your needs.

I opted for a Roadrunner, and did more to nail my VE curve in 2 hours than the previous 2 months. And it didn't require numerous pids or formula's.

Don't get me wrong, knowing math and physics are great, but the point of science is not to make everything harder, its to make to work for you.

Maybe someone else can enlighten us as to the applicability of the above technique.

Again, best of luck.

Respectfully

..WeathermanShawn..

[Dale]

Supra, thanks for looking at it even though you couldnt do anything. As of right now the laptop broke and I have to fix that. I'm also going to make it get fresher air, and smooth out my intake. So it will be a bit before I am able to log again.

[redhardsupra]

While you may or may not have access to a Roadrunner PCM, under the EFILive forum 'Roadrunner', is an interesting tutorial concerning VE smoothing using Strims as a method of refining the VE curve.

RR does not give you any new functionality, it merely automates and speeds up the (incorrect) process. Thus, the results you'll get eventually will be the same, with RR you'll just get there quicker.

Since Strims vary due to environmental changes...

you got it in reverse, STrims are merely a correction to make up for what we cannot account for properly through models. the problem is the proper attribution: since STrims are the final 'catch-all' correction, you have no way of knowing if you're making up for dirty MAF sensor, imprecise VE table, clogged up filters or injectors, bad calibration of...anything. So I wouldn't be in such a rush to attribute STrims to anything in particular, that's not what they're for.

I am sure on a purely scientific engineering standpoint that someone will dismiss the technique or tell you why it will not work, but I would just simply suggest you take a look at it.

Tuning is more fun if something works, and unless you have a Doctorate degree in math or engineering, might be more rewarding to to something that might may satisfy your needs.

That's a slippery slope you're taking there. If you dismiss the scientific process, what are you left with--the ouija board?

I opted for a Roadrunner, and did more to nail my VE curve in 2 hours than the previous 2 months. And it didn't require numerous pids or formula's.

And you still get the same wrong result, but you got there quicker! progress!

Don't get me wrong, knowing math and physics are great, but the point of science is not to make everything harder, its to make to work for you.

and the fact that you dont understand something should motivate you to observe and discover, and not run toward the comfort or acceptable misery.

Shawn, for a guy that has asked some very insightful questions, you truly sadden me with taking the hit off SSpdDemon's "git-r-dun" crackpipe. There's a lot of ways you can get close enough to the limit of observable errors doing completely wrong things--if you've studied any science you probably know about the schemes people have come up with to explain the heliocentric sun system, or the 'negative' mass of air. Just because some hack works for you right now does not mean it will work for everyone else at any other time. Only proper science can provide you with the models universal enough to hold true regardless of conditions. Everything else is merely a hack, in the most pejorative meaning possible. If you want to understand this stuff in more details, I'd be delighted to explain it to you, I've sent you my contact info before.

[redhardsupra]

Supra, thanks for looking at it even though you couldnt do anything. As of right now the laptop broke and I have to fix that. I'm also going to make it get fresher air, and smooth out my intake. So it will be a bit before I am able to log again.

no problem, I got plenty of other research going on. however, when you get your setup back up and running again, i'm very interested in seeing the data, as i've never heard of these effects so consistent and so pronounced.

[Dale]

no problem, I got plenty of other research going on. however, when you get your setup back up and running again, i'm very interested in seeing the data, as i've never heard of these effects so consistent and so pronounced.

Will do. I think my air intake setup which is not whats normally found on an OBD2 car is part of it. Then the air here changes so much during the summer. Its quite normal to have 68-72deg in the morning...Then hit 95+ during the day. Hopefully adding some ducts infront of the air intake will help get rid of some of the radiator heatsoak.