using 14.047 for desired AFR and not 14.63?

[mr.prick]

I am aware of this. My point being did GM set the PE table up as unusually rich or were they acknowledging the fact that many cars would see E10 and set up PE tables to acknowledge a rich non-ethanol AFR or a damn close PE for E10.

Your guess is as good as mine.
An '02 Fbody Stoich setting is close to gas
and the max PE value is closer to E22 according to the spreadsheet.

A lean stoich for E10 and
and way rich PE for gas.

An '02 Ybody(zo6) seems to be a different story
According to the spreadsheet stoich setting is gas
and PE is right on for E10.



An email to the CEO of GM may get a definitive answer to your question.

[98 tigershark]

I dont know but maybe the MAP advances the spark also to adjust, but that is just a guess.
98 tigershark

[SSpdDmon]

What's the point of worrying about what was meant by a GM engineer? If it was tuned for gas, then E10 would cause a rise in fuel trims, which would ideally be carried over to WOT. So (in theory), PE would be back to it's rich levels originally set by the engineers. Truth is, the real world isn't as consistent as the lab (no matter how high tech it is), some gas stations sell bad gas (whether they know it or not), and warranty costs have not only a negative cost impact, but a negative effect on an OEM's reputation. To me, it goes without saying that they're going to tune the OEM setup on the conservative side.

[98 tigershark]

Here is a new one on me. Today I put gas in my tanK from a place in Portland that I know for sure has E10 and 90% Gasoline.. My car ran tremendously better and was happy. So on the way home today I bought a gallon of Premium from a station that I filled up before. I asked the owner this Question and very carefully:
Q:Were can I buy E85 as I wished we had a station that sells it around here as the Octane is really good for my care and worth as much as E10 Gas?

A:They said we get E85 (also that sometimes its a little old so they get a good deal) from a whole seller when the other prices are too high during the summer and holiday seasons. Also to ask so I could get the right pump. E85 is 2/3 ( instead of $3.00+ a gal, E85 is 2.00 a gal) the price of E10 so do I trust a little station now in this economy, no!!

What can I say. I could tell my car was not running well and the fuel milage was terrible also. It even sounded lean and the timing was off. When I refilled today, my car was very happy. So here is the big deal. That could have toasted my engine and If I had paid a local tuner for an $800.00 tune it would be worthless as it was done with E85 not E0-E10. I could have also done allot of other damage. Almost double the consumption and a very sissy like sound and throttle response and the timing was somehow not as commanded.
You see not just because it is B3601, But anything higher than E10 can cause damage and even wasted money on an expensive tune or a voided warranty. I was pretty sure it was very bad fuel but it did drive me crazy as I think my car is pretty darn fast and it was a sissy mobile.
I am going to try to get a system in my car this winter to know, as I have to much time and money invested to let a gas station or a distributor or an honest mistake even ruin my car.
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are on solid ground with the known part, but you missed an important point because you are honest. Unfortunately that does not mean everyone is or perfect!! We have to find a way on the fly!!
Something to think about.
98 tigershark

[SSpdDmon]

Here is a new one on me. Today I put gas in my tanK from a place in Portland that I know for sure has E10 and 90% Gasoline.. My car ran tremendously better and was happy. So on the way home today I bought a gallon of Premium from a station that I filled up before. I asked the owner this Question and very carefully:
Q:Were can I buy E85 as I wished we had a station that sells it around here as the Octane is really good for my care and worth as much as E10 Gas?

A:They said we get E85 (also that sometimes its a little old so they get a good deal) from a whole seller when the other prices are too high during the summer and holiday seasons. Also to ask so I could get the right pump. E85 is 2/3 ( instead of $3.00+ a gal, E85 is 2.00 a gal) the price of E10 so do I trust a little station now in this economy, no!!

What can I say. I could tell my car was not running well and the fuel milage was terrible also. It even sounded lean and the timing was off. When I refilled today, my car was very happy. So here is the big deal. That could have toasted my engine and If I had paid a local tuner for an $800.00 tune it would be worthless as it was done with E85 not E0-E10. I could have also done allot of other damage. Almost double the consumption and a very sissy like sound and throttle response and the timing was somehow not as commanded.
You see not just because it is B3601, But anything higher than E10 can cause damage and even wasted money on an expensive tune or a voided warranty. I was pretty sure it was very bad fuel but it did drive me crazy as I think my car is pretty darn fast and it was a sissy mobile.
I am going to try to get a system in my car this winter to know, as I have to much time and money invested to let a gas station or a distributor or an honest mistake even ruin my car.
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are on solid ground with the known part, but you missed an important point because you are honest. Unfortunately that does not mean everyone is or perfect!! We have to find a way on the fly!!
Something to think about.
98 tigershark

I'm confused...did you just throw old E85 in the tank and didn't bother to change B3601? Outside of the fact that the station owner admitted to the gas being old, did you make sure you have enough injector to support a higher blend of ethanol before hand? If it's not getting enough fuel and/or the timing wasn't adjusted, then yes it's going to run like a wimp.

We all need to make sure that focusing on the tune so much doesn't make us forget about the mechanical side of things. If you don't have enough injector to support a higher blend of ethanol...then playing around with E85 is probably not such a good idea.

[98 tigershark]

I did not know that was the case as to the gas until I asked later, yesterday as a matter of fact, I thought I had bought E10 as that is what it said on the pump on the previous fill. Not E85 as it turned out!! The point is that how do you know what is in the tank? In this case the station put E85 in the E10 tanks and sold E85 for the price of E10 and in an E10 pump. They admitted it. Because they got a good deal on it. Think about that. A station 10 or 30 times a year puts E85 in the E10 tanks. If the Station tanks are around 10,000 gallons, thats an extra $10,000 they make if they sell it as E10 when it should be sold as E85. If they do this 10 times a year they have made $100.000.00 extra. Then suddenly a small struggling station or a crooked one or a fuel distributor, or just an honest mistake, whatever the situation is, selling E85 in the E10 pumps has to be happening more and more. And you are right I am worried about the damage and the mechanical aspect. I would never put E85 in my tank knowingly, as my setup can barely handle E10 as to the 40% plus volume requirements needed for E85. I was pretty ticked off when they said they do this sometimes. Would most of the public notice this, probably not. So they can get away with it. I am not even sure if it is legal. But the extra profit will surely make this kind of thing happen more!
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are right I am concerned about the mechanical side. The point was this kind of thing will happen more and more I think.
Take care,
98 tigershark

[SSpdDmon]

I did not know that was the case as to the gas until I asked later, yesterday as a matter of fact, I thought I had bought E10 as that is what it said on the pump on the previous fill. Not E85 as it turned out!! The point is that how do you know what is in the tank? In this case the station put E85 in the E10 tanks and sold E85 for the price of E10 and in an E10 pump. They admitted it. Because they got a good deal on it. Think about that. A station 10 or 30 times a year puts E85 in the E10 tanks. If the Station tanks are around 10,000 gallons, thats an extra $10,000 they make if they sell it as E10 when it should be sold as E85. If they do this 10 times a year they have made $100.000.00 extra. Then suddenly a small struggling station or a crooked one or a fuel distributor, or just an honest mistake, whatever the situation is, selling E85 in the E10 pumps has to be happening more and more. And you are right I am worried about the damage and the mechanical aspect. I would never put E85 in my tank knowingly, as my setup can barely handle E10 as to the 40% plus volume requirements needed for E85. I was pretty ticked off when they said they do this sometimes. Would most of the public notice this, probably not. So they can get away with it. I am not even sure if it is legal. But the extra profit will surely make this kind of thing happen more!
Thanks SSpdDmon as you are right I am concerned about the mechanical side. The point was this kind of thing will happen more and more I think.
Take care,
98 tigershark

Ohhh....I got ya now. Yeah, I wouldn't be visiting that station anytime in the future. I'd be willing to bet there's a way to report them. That's definitely not good that they're selling something other than what's advertised.

[98 tigershark]

Now you have it. Think about the extra profit they make too. I am not sure how to report them or even if this is against the law. In small towns we just stay away and be careful what we say as everyone is related almost or at least friends.
Take care,
98 tigershark

[mr.prick]

You should of filled up with Techron.

[98 tigershark]

You are soooo right!!!
Techrolean, I like techrolean!!!
98 tigershark